View Full Version : 24 Hours of Lemons and Jeeps
The fastest growing motorsport in the US. That's the 24 Hours of Lemons.
http://www.24hoursoflemons.com/
Nasty. Brutish. Not Short Enough.
The crowd. The spectacle. The pall of blue smoke and roasted clutch discs. In all motorsport, no event captures the universal human need to whale on old crapcans and hoover down greasy barbecue like the 24 Hours of LeMons.
Each LeMons race is for cars purchased, fixed up, and track-prepped for a total of 500 dollars or less. But before reaching the grid, you'll have to survive trials like the Personal-Injury-Lawyer Anti-Slalom, the Marxist-Valet Parking Challenge, and the Wide Open Throttle Rodthrowapalooza. Twelve hours into the race, the car voted People’s Choice is called in and awarded a cash prize; simultaneously, the car voted People’s Curse is called in and summarily destroyed. At the end of 24 hours, a gala awards ceremony plies the survivors with trophies, plaques, and four-figure purses in canvas bags full of nickels. What's not to like?
As a motorsport the 24 hours of lemons is serious and arbitrary. The winner isn't the real winner, as that goes to the team that does the most with the least and finishes the race, the coveted Index of Effluency award.
There have only been a two Jeep's entered in the Lemons races (that I could find):
An XJ (possibly a 1988 2 wheel drive) in 2007 - DNF
http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/2795/dscn5664w.jpg
Another XJ, last summer. Finished 66th(?) (http://forums.24hoursoflemons.com/viewtopic.php?id=1247&p=1)
http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/9540/327hm.jpg
As a lemons fan and a proxy jeep fan, I want to see more Jeeps run, watch them flip and comically shed parts while spraying oil from their 4.0L rear seals. The link above is the most serious attempt to date to build a XJ for a race but obviously fell short.
There must be a $500 jeep that can run and win.
chadsmeltzer
03-02-2010, 10:08 AM
Somebody get start on it, I am more then willing to help fix it up and I would be the best driver ever out there. I would roll (like a Jeep, not a coasting roll) across the finish line just because.
Even though the car can only be $500, most teams end up spending a few grand on the race. That's what keeps most people away from it. I would love to do it if I had money.
spieg
03-02-2010, 03:51 PM
Id be up for it. We should put together a team SWMJ.
Somebody get start on it, I am more then willing to help fix it up and I would be the best driver ever out there. I would roll (like a Jeep, not a coasting roll) across the finish line just because.
Even though the car can only be $500, most teams end up spending a few grand on the race. That's what keeps most people away from it. I would love to do it if I had money.
When I day dream I often think about what would be needed for a Index of Effluency winner.
Safety equipment such as roll cage, brakes, tires, fire suit, helmet and various other bits are not included in the $500. For a basic race setup it'll cost around $2000 and little effort. This would be so basic that actually finishing the race would be a near impossibility. This doesn't include your travel and race weekend costs, so figure another few hundred per team member and round it off to $1000.
To actually make a car that could win you'd probably need more like between $3-5K depending on elbow grease factor. The sticky part of this is that you actually need to get a really shitty car. It has to been genuine shit if you want to win. So you are spending a good chunk of money on a terrible shitpile that is probably not road worthy and may not survive the race.
However here is the good part. Elbow grease is free and you can put as much work into the car as you can. The judges are strict about documenting everything so most teams setup a website and regularly post pictures and updates which the judges DO read. Some teams spend over a year putting together their cars. Of course part of lemons is that regardless of what you do, cheat or not, bribing the judges is usually necessary.
The car doesn't need to be fast, that's what fucks over most teams. It needs to be reliable under racing conditions. Teams always fuck up on cooling, electrical and not properly prepping the engine. A slow car that never breaks down or gets a black flag will crack the top 10, happens all the time.
I firmly believe a Jeep could be made to be rock solid for a race. Already a strong plus with most of their engines and the older ones are built pretty tough to start. Their main disadvantage is weight and suspension/ride height.
This is sort of a big problem actually. Watch this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9gy2VTMo2g&feature=player_embedded#
You are racing with 70-100 other crap cans going speeds of 50-80mph. Being nimble is sort of important to getting the fuck out of the way of other cars doing whacky shit. This would require some serious thought as looking at the entire line of Jeeps, making one into something and has some handling at decent speed is going to be difficult. You can't cut enough weight and you are working with the absolute wrong suspension.
An XJ seems an obvious choice but maybe something more bizarre would be easier, a Wagoneer? Maybe a Comanche?
z9phrolf
03-02-2010, 09:20 PM
i'm so in! what' z9ajmatu's zj worth these days?
z9phrolf
03-02-2010, 09:25 PM
4wd xj or zj with a 4.0L straight 6 is the answer. probably modified to have a dual radiator and dual battery setup.
i'm so in! what' z9ajmatu's zj worth these days?
Well there is another strategy sometimes used and that is the big motherfucking beast no one else wants to get near. A lot of teams go for light smaller cars and a single collision takes them out of the race. Having a giant ZJ (possibly reinforced) car mangler slowly and steadily making the circuit crushing the opposition would certainly get a lot of notice. The bad part is the lemons people thought of this and there is something called the Peoples Curse. After the first day of racing all the teams vote on a car to be destroyed at the beginning of the second day of racing.
Please take note the size of the cars being crushed in these videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4tuap8DVRQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlvOpN9RrTc
There are two ways to really get a People Curse vote going for you, a giant car that bullies people on the track (real or perceived) or an obvious cheater car that got by judges.
4wd xj or zj with a 4.0L straight 6 is the answer. probably modified to have a dual radiator and dual battery setup.
You'd probably know this better then me, what is the smallest and lightest XJ or ZJ that can be gotten stock?
A dual or oversized radiator is pretty much critical. Dual battery isn't the way I think electrical could be handled best. I'm not really sure, I sort of thought a stripped down to bare minimum would be best. I'm not really sure why so many cars have electrical issues while racing but they do and it seems to be the worst problem to try and fix. Old cars have loose connections that racing will break in a hurry? I've seen some cars that attempt to avoid this by just making a new custom wiring harness inside the car for easy access.
I think the 4.0L is the obvious choice since it can take so much abuse.
chadsmeltzer
03-02-2010, 11:26 PM
I have an old Toyota pickup, but it doesnt run.
I would definitely help with working on it, but don't look for much money from me.
I have an old Toyota pickup, but it doesnt run.
I would definitely help with working on it, but don't look for much money from me.
This is a Jeep forum sir!
The money part seems bigger then it really is, the main thing most teams lack is people helping to work on the car and sometimes drivers. Teams range in size from 4 to 12 or more. When you split costs among many team members, it's really not so bad. From all the teams I've followed, the worst part is always getting reliable people to work on the car. A lot of teams underestimate the amount of work that is needed to prep a lemons car, it's actually a lot, intense hardcore amounts of work. I could post the prep rules but it'd be too huge. Having a team members that can turn wrenches but not pay for much are really valuable in lemons. I can't even overstate how much people working on the car is important.
Put it this way, if you show up to lemons as a non-driving, non-paying much participant in a team that is willing to help others fixing cars, you will be treated like a fucking god and given free food, beer and make plenty of friends.
spieg
03-03-2010, 09:38 AM
Does the AMC Eagle count as a jeep? Its a little lower riding but still has the solid drivetrain, straight six, etc. Its a little piggish at 3400lbs though. But ive actually seen them for sale for close to 500.
chadsmeltzer
03-03-2010, 10:02 AM
I like working for free food, but I can't drink.
Hint: ArcticCat843 and I are both going to school for Auto tech and High Performance motorsports.
chadsmeltzer
03-03-2010, 10:03 AM
Does the AMC Eagle count as a jeep? Its a little lower riding but still has the solid drivetrain, straight six, etc. Its a little piggish at 3400lbs though. But ive actually seen them for sale for close to 500.
Spieg, they call it a Plasma cutter, it will make all the weight go away.
spieg
03-03-2010, 10:05 AM
Yea but it makes the metal go away, too. I think this might be one of those "rule of two thirds" situations. Light, strong, cheap. Pick two.
I like working for free food, but I can't drink.
Hint: ArcticCat843 and I are both going to school for Auto tech and High Performance motorsports.
Well this could be resume fodder for you both.
Yea but it makes the metal go away, too. I think this might be one of those "rule of two thirds" situations. Light, strong, cheap. Pick two.
Jeeps have real frames, well most of them, so I thought a convertible XJ or ZJ might work. Not sure how much structural integrity would be lost but that should be a few hundred pounds, which would come right back in the form of a roll cage.
The weight problem is a tough one. The AMC Eagle is not a bad idea at all as it might be easier to shed a few meaningful pounds off something less then 2 tons. It'll still drive a like a whale on a course but at least the risk of flipping is reduced. Also being a unique car never seen in lemons before would really really help nail the top prize.
I know very very little about the Eagle, I'm sure they were slow as shit and old brakes would be a problem. Actually everything would be a problem but that's lemons racing.
I might do some research on it and see what comes up.
spieg
03-04-2010, 06:15 AM
The XJ and ZJ are both unibody, so the full frame thing is out. Both would have to be reinforced to be really tough. Nothing an integrated roll cage couldnt help with, but thats the same for anything. If you want to talk about a full frame jeep monster to run the race, lets start looking at wagoneers(SJ). It wouldnt be hard to make a tank out of one of them. The old mopar v8's arent as reliable as the I6, but they arent horrible, either. And since the 401 was a factory option, it wouldnt be hard to get enough power into one of the 4500lb monsters to make it relatively quick. Plus, shag carpet came stock. Yea, thats just cool.
Theres the old jeep military division. The M715's are fucking sweet if you ask me. And then we get a diesel powerplant, that yea is slow as fuck, but it aint gonna stop for nothing. And there isnt anything in the race thats going to stop it, unless they vote it out.
The eagle didnt perform well, but it had the old school 258ci I6. It wouldnt take much work to rework that into a stroked I6 and come close to doubling its stock output. It still wouldnt be a fast car by any stretch, maybe 0-60 in 7 or 8 seconds. Think of the eagle as an XJ with a car body.
chadsmeltzer
03-04-2010, 11:07 AM
Josh also has a tubing bender...
chadsmeltzer
03-04-2010, 11:08 AM
Actually Josh has a good towrig and trailer too.
chadsmeltzer
03-04-2010, 11:12 AM
He just said he also has a 5 point harness.
Here are the rules.
http://www.24hoursoflemons.com/rules/
The eagle didnt perform well, but it had the old school 258ci I6. It wouldnt take much work to rework that into a stroked I6 and come close to doubling its stock output. It still wouldnt be a fast car by any stretch, maybe 0-60 in 7 or 8 seconds. Think of the eagle as an XJ with a car body.
Keep in mind any work done to a engine has to be zero cost and saying you know a buddy that would do it for free will not cut it with judges. We can swap motors or do insane power boosts (http://www.nationalspeedinc.com/humor-2/eyesore-racings-ghettocharged-miata-for-24-hours-of-lemons/), but nothing that like boring or stroking an engine
Even swapping engines will need to be factored into the $500 cost.
I'll have a spare 4.0L out of my Jeep fairly soon is a motor is needed.
ArcticCat843
03-06-2010, 02:29 PM
i have a Xj body.....yep thats about it....
And a tow rig, and tube bender but no clue how to use it...
The blue XJ in the op was in the Sears Pointless race happening this weekend. I say was because it flipped early on. It might not be done for the weekend but I assume it is.
FYI the next race is:
17-18 April 2010
American Irony (Detroit MI)
Gingerman Raceway, South Haven MI
You guys should really go check it out since it's in SWM. I wish I could go.
chadsmeltzer
03-06-2010, 04:26 PM
I'll have a spare 4.0L out of my Jeep fairly soon is a motor is needed.
What are you putting in it?
What are you putting in it?
350 SBC with some mild upgrades
chadsmeltzer
03-07-2010, 01:00 AM
350 SBC with some mild upgrades:bow: .
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